Curse

Crom The Pale · Oct 01, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Anet has already done what they could to help out pug, allowing people to easily jump from American to Europe servers so they can find people online when there district/region is not active.

Now were asking for them to help out us solo(ie hench/Hero) players.

Forcing people to PUG does not improve there skill lever and certainly will not improve thier enjoyment of the game. If they like pugs they will use them regardless of how many heros are availible and if not then giving them the full use of those heros will keep them playing the game and increase the chances of them joining a pug.

By decreasing our enjoyment of the game your forcing many people to quit, decreasing your player base and reducing the number of people who might potentially join a pug or even a Guild.

lyra_song · Oct 01, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Then why are they so ... anti-party oriented.

Reputation farming bonuses were mentioned and they are most illustrative: even if people are doing same thing, game system still forces them apart for better efectiveness.

If there was "Eyewitness" efect ("For 180 seconds, whenever you gain repuration points, you get 1 extra point for each player in party") for title grind stuff, you would see a LOT of parties with 8 humans. To the extreme that they would refuse to fill in rest of team with heroes if not enough people are out there.

There is a lot of stuff possible:

i.e. "Mentor bonus": If you already finished mission on highest reward level (or got protector title), you get Y gold for each party member who reaches new reward level on mission (bonus per reward level, scaling per dificulty of mission). You would have experts start parties, coordinate them and pull them throught missions, because if he suceeds on master reward he can get as much as Y gold * 3 * 7. if y is as low as 100g, you get 2100 gold. Also, profit does not go down that much if you have several mentors. ...

You can have a lot of neat bonuses for playing with people and helping out, but this game gives none.

Not that this stuff would make me party more, but it would be neat, and for sure a lot more helpfull than party search or so for people liking humans.

Yes i did bring up the reputation farming as to one of those things that needs to be fixed so that it awards the whole party the same thing.

I identified the problem (The bonuses are random for each party member) and suggested a solution that directly applies to the problem, instead of saying "Screw playing with people, it works better if i go solo."

Broken game mechanics and unfair gameplay quirks get ignored with that kind of mindset.

Jos:

I remember when Hardmode was announced. People were siked. Theres been this thread on Sardelac about player suggestions on how to make the game more challenging. I thought we were going to get some nice tough challenges.

some suggestions posted were:
-dual class monsters
-balanced monster parties
-randomized monster skillsets (among a pool of good skillsets)
-monsters who kite

what did we get instead?
-dual elite monsters
-built in IAS/Speed buff
-increased monster health/energy

I mean really its the cheap way out. It didnt require players to be better, since previous tactics worked, it just took a little longer.

HM was supposed to be our barometer for PvE Player skill. But sadly, its not.

Crom:

How can you say enjoyment is decreasing when there hasnt been any changes against solo players?

I dont see how you can say your enjoyment is decreasing because of the lack of 7 heros, since theres ALWAYS been a lack of 7 heroes. I hate to say it, but the status quo seems to be in favor of solo-ers as it stands, with exceptions to areas without hench.

Now, if Anet was taking away hero slots, i would definitely agree with you there.

I think this all really stems from the addition of the GW:EN heroes (giving potential for interesting team builds) that people wanna use more of their heroes, which is an understandable reaction. But there hasnt been a change against solo-player types as it stands (correct me if im wrong please).

Anet isnt taking away any fun, but rather taking away potential for MORE fun.

Draikin · Oct 01, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I think this all really stems from the addition of the GW:EN heroes (giving potential for interesting team builds) that people wanna use more of their heroes, which is an understandable reaction. But there hasnt been a change against solo-player types as it stands (correct me if im wrong please).

The fact that heroes can't use PvE only skills does seem to be a change against solo players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How can you say enjoyment is decreasing when there hasnt been any changes against solo players?

Because the game evolved while solo play didn't. For example playing with H/H teams in Hard Mode isn't exactly as fun as in Normal Mode, since you're confronted by the limitations of henches a lot more often there.

lyra_song · Oct 01, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

The fact that heroes can't use PvE only skills does seem to be a change against solo players.

Heroes could never use lightbringer gaze.
Heroes could never use sunspear rebirth signet.

Whats the change? This was added when heroes were added.

The fact that heroes WERE added is a change FOR solo players.

Quote:

Because the game evolved while solo play didn't. For example playing with H/H teams in Hard Mode isn't exactly as fun as in Normal Mode, since you're confronted by the limitations of henches a lot more often there.

Evolved, ya right.

I just posted at exactly what changed in HM. Thats not an evolution, thats just an increase in level cap.

The tactics dont change, the bad guys just hit harder. They didnt get smarter or require new tactics. Just spam your skills more.

Draikin · Oct 01, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Heroes could never use lightbringer gaze.
Heroes could never use sunspear rebirth signet.

Whats the change? This was added when heroes were added.

The fact that heroes WERE added is a change FOR solo players.

So if Anet were to introduce 100 PvE only skills which only heroes can use, the team players wouldn't complain since it doesn't change anything for them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The tactics dont change, the bad guys just hit harder. They didnt get smarter or require new tactics. Just spam your skills more.

Henches spamming Healing Breeze won't help you in Hard Mode.

lyra_song · Oct 01, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

So if Anet were to introduce 100 PvE only skills which only heroes can use, the team players wouldn't complain since it doesn't change anything for them?

Are PvE skills unfair to solo players?

It seems to me, heroes were added for solo players.
PvE skills were added for team players for use in hardmode.

I dont really see PvE skills being added for heroes, just as there wont be any more hero slots added, because it does lean too much towards solo play.

Thats purely speculation of course.

Quote:

Henches spamming Healing Breeze won't help you in Hard Mode.

I find H/H teams adequate, albeit slow.

Some missions are impossible, but that brings us back to what the original design was intended.

the_jos · Oct 01, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Yes we can currently access these areas, but why should the solo player not be able to take a decent team into these areas?

There is a difference between a decent team and a team of 7 heroes.
Part of the discussion is that people want to use their pimped heroes and not buffed hench.

However, a decent team would be possible to achieve with a buff to hench, which I don't oppose.

Hench with less than 8 skills on the bar?
Well, in a lot of situations I run heroes with a number skills disabled.
That's because the AI can't handle the 8 skills without using the wrong ones or draining energy.
Less than 8 skills does not have to be a problem, however, the remaining skills should be a fair combination. That's where certain hench fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

HM was supposed to be our barometer for PvE Player skill. But sadly, its not.

As primary mesmer, I know this all too well.

The HM title track does say something about the player, but there is no way to tell if he got it by playing or with support of a good guild (the same could be true for fame, I guess).
However, HM titles are titles that count for me, only less than PvP titles.
Having said that, no HM titles here.
Guess I've been helping guildies too much (HM guild)

Draikin · Oct 01, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont really see PvE skills being added for heroes, just as there wont be any more hero slots added, because it does lean too much towards solo play.

Looking at it objectively then it leans towards team play. It's the solo player who is limited in his choice of what build he can run since he's stuck with henches. However, you can't solve the problems with team play by putting limitations on solo play. This entire 7 heroes debate shows what happens when you try to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

However, a decent team would be possible to achieve with a buff to hench, which I don't oppose.

I guess they could change every hench skill bar in all the campaigns and give them runes and better weapons. They could also let us use 4 more heroes that act like henches, a mechanic that already exists in the game. The latter seems like the most logical option.

lyra_song · Oct 01, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Looking at it objectively then it leans towards team play. It's the solo player who is limited in his choice of what build he can run since he's stuck with henches. However, you can't solve the problems with team play by putting limitations on solo play. This entire 7 heroes debate shows what happens when you try to do so.

And at the same time, he doesnt have to deal with pug bs, he can afk for as long as he wants, he can disconnect and not worry about people stealing his drops, he doesnt have to worry about other player's latency. And all mission designs (in normal mode) are made with the solo player as the maximum, using Hero/Hench.

You cant solve the problems on team play by removing the limit on solo play either.

zwei2stein · Oct 01, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Draikin, but noone here actually asks for PvE skills on H/H.

Its not worth it.

Draikin · Oct 01, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You cant solve the problems on team play by removing the limit on solo play either.

Of course not, like I said they are different problems that need different solutions. I'm just saying that the limitations on solo play only hurt solo play and do nothing for team play, so what reason is there to keep them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Draikin, but noone here actually asks for PvE skills on H/H.

Neither am I, I was just using this as an example of how solo players can't customize their team in the way a team of 8 real players can.

Thunder79 · Oct 02, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In point of fact, if a majority of players really wanted to party, they would find ways to do so regardless, and heroes/henchmen wouldn't even be a factor. The problem is that exactly the opposite is true - many players don't care to party, and adding seven heroes only helps them. Incentive systems are counterproductive - you want people to party because they like partying, not because they get better drops, more exp, etc.

If you want a good community, tweaking the game isn't enough. If the people don't get along, nothing the game does is going to matter.

Exactly...give rewards to groups who already get the rewards that solo players can't get? What does that solve? Nothing...absolutely nothing. That's not an incentive to party with people for socializing, that's an incentive to party for rewards....again it's all about the business which is what PUGs are about now anyway. That wouldn't change a damn thing...people who do not like joining PUGS will continue to not join PUGs.

The problem with PUGS is the PUGS themselves...something nothing in the game can fix...it's the people not the game. No matter what you change in game...people are not going to suddenly decide "OH I better PUG now!".

"Promoting Socialing" is the same as "Forced Grouping"....You can't force people to socialize if they don't want to...thus when you try to "Promote Socializing" all you get is a group of people who want to get the job done, don't care to "Socialize", and do it with as little grief as possible...ie The current state of PUGs. NOTHING will fix that. There are some people who want to PUG...and things should be done to help them find others who want to PUG....but then there are others who don't want to PUG and just want to have fun by playing the game...those people should be able to do that unrestricted....and 7 heroes should be allowed for that exact reason.

They gave us Henchmen...we asked for more...They gave us Heroes...and now guess what...We are asking for more. The game design has been developing towards 7 heroes since the beginning...just freaking give in and give it to us so we can play the game and HAVE FUN. That's what this is all about...Having Fun. Why can't solo players have fun and play the ENTIRE game solo?

Wild Karrde · Oct 02, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AND A BIG FAT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

heros ruined the social life of Guild Wars as it is. its loosing the MMO part of the MMORPG.

People complain that if heros removed they have to play with sucky henchmen, well why not play with real people? then they say all real people suck, PUGs suck and all the good people jsut take heros/henchmen. Well if heros didnt exist then the good players would use PuGs too. why not try to have fun with other people instead of having the opinion "im 1337 all other suck"

Seriously Guild Wars was supposed to be played with other people. All the whiners turned it into a solo play game.

Isileth · Oct 02, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Actually Wild Karrde it was advertised as a game you could play solo. You had the choice.

And no heroes didnt ruin it, before heroes I used henchmen.
Even without 7 heroes people will still avoid pugs. Some because of time or afk reasons, others because they just dont want to.

All this would do is enable them to play how they want at the same level as people who choose to play with other players.

Vinraith · Oct 02, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

People complain that if heros removed they have to play with sucky henchmen, well why not play with real people?

PUGing isn't fun. Remove heroes, remove henchmen, and we just won't play at all. Get it? It's really simple, nothing you do to this game will ever make us play with you. Whine, cry, scream, call your mommy, it won't make any difference. People that want to PUG, PUG. People that don't want to PUG don't PUG. Heroes didn't create this situation, 7 heroes isn't going to make it any different.

Most people want play MMO's alone or with friends/guildies the bulk of the time, a design that doesn't allow for that is a design doomed to economic failure. Why do you think that even true MMORPG's like WoW are so soloable?

Lord Natural · Oct 03, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

What I don't understand is why they even bothered to improve hench skillbars (for gwen). The only reason I can think of for limiting to 3 heroes, is to force players to play with "bad" hench, which ultimately encourages them to socialize. The problem is, the new hench bars are reasonably well thought out, and are probably better than what your average pve'er puts on his hero skill bars. It's just a weird contradiction. I mean if you're going to give us hench which start to mimic hero skillbars, just allow heroes already.

Thunder79 · Oct 04, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AND A BIG FAT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

heros ruined the social life of Guild Wars as it is. its loosing the MMO part of the MMORPG.

It was dead before heroes were introduced...I played almost all of Prophecies and Factions using nothing but Henchmen. Heroes simply made the game I played a bit closer to what a human group can already do. It's still far far far from what a human group can do, but it is an improvement. 7 heroes still wouldn't be equal to what a human group can do
...but then again heroes don't complain when I decide to take a break
...Heroes don't run around the map agroing groups far away from the one you're fighting
...Heroes don't suddenly go afk leaving the group to suffer
...Heroes don't leach on missions, contributing as little as possible to the success of the mission and even contributing to the failure
...Heroes don't have problems with disconnects
...Heroes don't berate you when you don't use the right skillbar
...Heroes don't complain and moan when you make the slightest mistake
...Heroes don't show one skillset in town then use a completely different one in mission or an explorable area
...Heroes don't draw genitalia on the radar
...Heroes use the skills you give them....they are as good as their AI allows and the skills you equip.
...Heroes DO THEIR JOB AND KEEP QUIET

...letting me play the game and have fun....should I go on?

Quote:

People complain that if heros removed they have to play with sucky henchmen, well why not play with real people? then they say all real people suck, PUGs suck and all the good people jsut take heros/henchmen. Well if heroes didn't exist then the good players would use PuGs too. why not try to have fun with other people instead of having the opinion "im 1337 all other suck"

see above....and....

most...and I emphasize MOST PUG players are there just to get the job done. They do not care about socializing like Guild groups do. If heroes didn't exist...ie just like before they existed....the people who hated PUGs would use Henchmen. And who said we thought we were the top players in the game? No one...it's a simple fact that PUGs are usually not well organized...the skill levels are a mixed bag...and the maturity levels are a mixed bag. That doesn't translate to meaning "im 1337 all other suck"...that means we obviously see the difference in skill levels in the PUG groups relative to our own skill level.

When I said MOST PUGs suck...that is a fact. MOST PUGs I have been a part of, have at least a couple bad traits. That does not mean all PUGs are bad. That doesn't mean the groups can't be well organized and efficient or even fun. What that does mean is when participating in a PUG you are likely to find at least a couple of the bad traits that turn people off to PUGS. This means that unless you are lucky...you will most likely find the typical PUG which is generally not fun to be a part of because of those bad traits.

When I join a PUG I'm hoping to have fun AND get the job done.
...you will never find me taking a break unless it's an absolute emergency or I am risking my job or something. Then again I try to play in PUGs only when I know I can play for the entire time without interruption.
...I don't agro unless told to do so...or unless the group moves as a whole.
...If I'm having problems with disconnects I do not join PUGS...I find something to do with Heroes/Henchmen until the dc's subside.
...I don't ask people to ping their skill bars. I show them the respect I would expect. I expect that they are competent enough to put together their own skill bar...just like I believe I am. If someone asks to see my skill bar I will show it...if they make suggestions I'll consider them...I'm always open to suggestions. Demands, however, have me hitting the Leave Group button faster than anything in this game. Goes back to the respect thing.
...If someone makes a mistake you won't find me complaining about it. If they make repeated mistakes I make suggestions as to what they should do differently. If they still don't learn...I make do. Only in extreme cases will you find me giving someone an earful about their mistakes.
...If I show a skillbar I stick to it or let my group know my change in skills...a group won't be good if people suddenly change the group dynamics without people knowing about it.
...Do I really need to comment about drawing genitalia on the radar? I mean...seriously.
...Unless a group needs a leader I do my job to the best of my ability and keep quiet unless input is needed.

I'm not against socializing in a group...not at all. I've had a hell of a lot of fun in guild groups before....if I can enjoy a PUG I will absolutely try to have fun in the group. The fact is the vast majority of PUGs do not desire socializing...they are there simply to get the job done. If it's a decision between a human group who isn't having fun and is just there to get the job done (but with some of the bad traits mentioned) and a Hero/Hench group...I would think that choice would be completely obvious.

Quote:

Seriously Guild Wars was supposed to be played with other people. All the whiners turned it into a solo play game.

The game was designed from the start to allow people to solo otherwise they wouldn't have allowed people to fill their groups completely with henchmen. They would have limited the number of henchmen like they are limiting heroes if they didn't want to allow people to solo.

One of the main reasons I play this game is because I CAN play it solo....and who are you to tell me how to play MY game.

strcpy · Oct 04, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

One of the main reasons I play this game is because I CAN play it solo....and who are you to tell me how to play MY game.

And therein is the problem with the attitude of the person you are replying too - you can not force me (or you) to PUG.

If you dropped the hench and hero there will not be a golden age of pugs, there will be far far far fewer little blue dots in town. In fact, given that most hench/hero players PUG every once in a while you will most likely find it *harder* to get a group. There are other games out there, none of us have to play this one. If you remove the method people enjoy playing they aren't going to suddenly play a game they dislike, they will move elsewhere.

PUGs died well before Factions was released and there is little that can be done to reverse this as it is a community problem, not a technical one. As much as a team full of humans running amok with 8 siege Destroyers, a team full of higher level PvE skills, Hard Mode, or any of the other things Anet has done that makes a human team SIGNIFICANTLY more effective than a H/H it has done *nothing*to improve them. In fact PUG usage continues to decline in the face of it.

Too often people think they can twiddle one little bit and have nothing else change, nor is this particular to this game but happens in real life in general. Generally speaking it is called a "false dilemma" in logic - there are more choices than "PUG" and "hench/hero". Hope and feelings are used to decide this, not reality.

Etta · Oct 04, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

heros ruined the social life of Guild Wars as it is.

Oh boy, I lol to that sentence, I do play with other people thank you very much but only if they have the same tag as me or in the alliance. Guild and Alliance chats are always active as well.

Seriously though if I really want to be social I would go to the pub with my friends, tomorrow night or Saturday's night. But hey if social life for you is about chatting to random people in an online game then good for you. What the heck do I know, right?

It doesn't matter if it 3 or 7 heores, I still won't pugs. Hell, give me 1 hero to use and I will fill up the team with henchmen. Limited 3 heroes in order to encourage people to PUGs, my arse.

glountz · Oct 04, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

I'm all to give freedom for people to choose.
Even if I had the choice of 7 heros + stacking PVE skills on them, I would still play with my guildies.
That's my e-friends who are keeping me playing this game. I got fed up with solo play a long time ago.